Conference - Return of Prodigals?? YEAH RIGHT!
Some of my friends are at a conference, some great folks from a local congregation. (hey its snowing here , just wanted to mention that, its england, 2" of snow and everything shuts down, indistry stops and we all starve, may even have to speak to our neighbours so thoughts id mention it) Yeah, so they are at this conference called something like 'the Prodigals return'. Now ive watched a bit of the video version, and whilst i didnt watch it all, the general vibe seemd to be based upon a very dysfunctional enterpretation of scripture to re enforce and equally dysfunctional paradigm of church.
SO..... the general premise.................... The Prodigals (i.e; those who are in rebellion and left) are going to return, and we must prepare. In short, people who have left the church who are most probably in rebellion, unwilling to come under authority, ill disciplined waifs, are going to come back to the church, and we the church (as organisation and human construct) must prepare, so no more bitching, back biting, criticising each other, lets get our house in order so they will like it the second time around - cook all our fatted calves now so it smeel appetising.. WHAT A TOTAL CROCK OF BROWN SMELLY STUFF.
Firstly, the only conceivable paradigm of the prodigal story relates to a deeply personal reconciling with the father, and the fathers house - namely our eternal destiny, the church construct is not Gods house, if anything on earth is, it us as individuals with the spirits indwelling. So - thats a pile of pants. Secondly, the prodigal was not in crisis with his father...... interestingly enough............. he was desperate for independance which he went off to explore. One of the most natural of human processes. He didnt complain about his environment either, this was a deeply personal decision, apparantly not to do with external factors but instead one of inner searching.
So, how you make this 'parable' - this illustration of deep human issues - about the church as centre, i have no idea. How you then turn that into preparation by changing what takes place there - i do not see either in the story. Proof texting at its worst!
OH ANDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD its is the congregational default mechanism of dysfunctional parent to assume the issue is with the child int he first place. Of the hundreds of people i have met who have left the construct over 15 years............. i could count on one hand those id percieve to be in actual rebellion to the Father.
From my own perspective - there is another prodigal who is absent from the parables, the one who distanced himself from the Father, went off and used his gifts / inheritance wisely and was able to stand on his own two feet. Shortly after all of his successes, he came back to the father and said 'father - i choose you, you are worthy of all my best efforts because of who you are, not because of what i need or can get from you.'
I know as many folks like this as i do ones who have fallen on their faces and come back to the father.
The issue is not how crap it is away from God, but that proximity to the Father and intimacy with the Father is central to any given situation or outcome.
Personally i feel this one parable, and one angle on the story feeds our victim mentality, that you have to be on your knees before you come to the father, when in fact, we are told to walk boldly into His presence, where i am certain that all, weak or strong - will fall prostrate in His presence.
Know any Part 2 Prodigals?? who went off in search of independance, the ability to stand on their own two feet and chose Christ? Chose the Father?
Im not complaining - just trying to paint a fuller picture (well i am complaining if the prodigal story is about church growth), i think its sad if we do the 'jesus is our crutch' theme as the main story here. Bit like the guy who came up to me and said 'id thought about becoming a Christian - i mean, it all makes sense, but i havent because ive not been abused nor am i a addict'!
Will we only come to Him when we are weak? or will we also come to Him when we are strong, when it isnt about us, when its only about Him?.
I dont agree with this breakdown but it was useful once:
A Prodigal - Someone who has separated themselves due to rebellion with God.
Action - Watch and Pray for their Return
Lost Sheep (which actually is still in the prodigal story) - Lost Their Way
Action - Go Get Them
But, then i would add this one.
Cant Even Walk - I discovered this definition in a Kev Prosche song "when you cant even walk - onto the field of Grace" those who are just so wounded we need to carry them regardless.
g-man
posted by al bino at 2:58 pm
9 Comments:
You are SO right, Gaz! I hadn't heard of this move within the church but how typical - if you don't do things in the 'accepted' way then YOU are the prodigal and in rebellion. If 'prodigal' means someone who leaves the Father's presence in rebellion then the people I know who have opted out of church as we know it in no way qualify for this description. Just the opposite. I would say that in fact they are doing what the Father wants but just doing it differently. They have not left the Father's presence at all.
Nice to have you back blogging.
6:22 pm
Great post! It gave me a good laugh. What I see happening in the mass church (as in human organisation) exodus is a return from Babylonian exile. Why would anyone go back to Babylon? We're too busy rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem. I like Nehemiah's response to Sanballat and Tobiah who accused the returnees of rebellion: "I am doing a great work and I cannot come down (to speak with you). Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?" (Ne 6) I believe that people who've come out of the system are going through a very important de-tox which is an act of spiritual warfare in and of itself. Just walking in the opposite spirit is quite powerful. So we're not going to be distracted by this nonsense, we're just going to keep on with the restoration!
5:50 am
It's so important to remember that sinners who need Christ are outside the walls. If all the Christians are inside...where does that leave them?
Your gifts are most effective where God has placed you to use them.
11:32 pm
Cheers All - Cheers bgart.
I work with one church in town who's new mission push and face to its community is 'church without walls' - im amazed no one has graffitti'd the last word, i knew a conference called that and they didnt hold back.
We need to remember that we have chose a very jewish context for church - we have if anything gone down a synagogue route and not an 'all gathered for something meaningful to change' city wide meeting of beleivers as other interpretations of the word ecclessia imply.
Constantine has screwed the church the world over by centralising the church so that is full of rome and empire, the need to govern and control (for whatever justified reason). It separated us off from life - made this gethering in this building out to be more spiritual and more close to heaven than any other activity or locatedness that you have as a believer. I know very very very few people and leaders who have not inherited that thinking. However you dress it up. Church never had walls, the temple was never to have been rebuilt in that regard. God has left the building - end of. Lets stop trying to get people to COME to MEET with Him, Lest stop doing OUTREACH which by default you can only do in admission that you are IN and Removed From something - namely the world, life and creation.
The christians are INSIDE the walls of centralised Religion - for 2% of their week!!!!! The walls exist in their mind the rest of the time - they take them with them. We must stop blaming - in my view - the construct for the problem - it is the problem, but the problem is really that the construct is in our minds. Thats why the house church movement ended up back in school halls on a sunday managing and organising.
Somehow - even if the walls of the construct remain intact - and many will.......... we need to work on the walls that come with us, that mean we separate off from life far more than 2 hours a week. MMMhhhhhhhhhh
11:03 am
just another paradigm here . . .
In the account of the prodigal, there was another child involved too. The elder brother.
I do not know what the aim of this conference was (the one which you saw in your area)
We have had ones by the same name here. And as is with any endeavor, there was some good stuff and not so good stuff to come out of it. So, let's take it easy on the "What's wrong with this or that" dialogue. But for the Grace of God, there go i.
The paradigm? Maybe the call isn't for the return of those "outside" (whatever that means);
maybe the call is for a paradigm shift in thinking (world-view, spiritual outlook) of the elder son who had "stayed home".
Seems to me that both were in need of some healing and transformation.
~ Selah ~
7:18 pm
You've raised a good question, Michael, that I often wrestle with. Is there ever an appropriate time and place to process things we hear, observe and sense that may not be 'nice' or make people feel good/look good? This is an honest and sincere question in my walk with the Lord. I always want to process the good, the bad and the ugly without entering into the wrong spirit. I don't want to be a dialoguer of solely of "what's wrong with this or that", but how do we talk about things, how do we address issues, so that we can move forward as the Body of Christ? Again, this is something I have by no means mastered. On the one hand, I always want to love and honour the entire Body, regardless of its condition in a certain part of the world. On the other hand, I don't want to exhibit unsanctified mercy, enabling and okaying things God is not okay with. Do you see my dilema?
10:51 am
Its vital that we know how church begins - probably on every occassion and every movement. It begin with people having got a generally good heart, most church movements - salvation army - methodists - pentecostals or whoever evangelical 4 square bretheren church. They all have a sense of something coming from heaven, and usually its about something God is seeking to restore to the whole body of christ, something which is missing and vital. There will be our own stuff that we just dont like and would like to move on from too, no doubt. What happens is a bunch of people or one person begins to vocalise what he is seeing, and that there are adjustments that need to be made. This historically doesnt go down well. Insead of someone saying -'oh yeah, thats really interesting, lest process that - we wouldnt want to miss something' - there is usually a defensive position that is taken. Then there are two defensive positions and a whole bunch of compairing going on.Then the guys seeing new stuff end up being marginalised, they go and start a move on the margins which becomes the next mainstream.
The problem is in the process. The is what we have in front of us as church, it seems to have failed miserably to know that the process of Gods revelation of the bride is in constant restoration, is constantly unfolding. But like insecure people, they have a repeating cycle of taking the nextbit God is revealing and saying we now have the whole thing. Then, when God speaks again, they are the protectors of the true faith, and cant hear whats still be spoken between the father and the son and revealed by the spirit.
Now its ok to say - well, lets draw some strength from the fact that while i /we / others are hearing something and have perhaps found ourselves on the margins, it may well become the next mainstream. The ISSUE is, like sarah points out - the spirit behind it. AS SOON AS WE SIT DOWN AT A TABLE, AND BEGIN TO RE SHAPE CHURCH - WE BEGIN BY DEFINING WHAT WE ARE - BY WHAT IT IS NOT, SOOOOOOON THERE IS A 'WE' AND BY DEFAULT THERE IS A 'THEY'.
wE THEN HAVE ISOLATIONSISM / ELITISM / SUPERIORITY / AND THE NEXT INTITUTION WHICH WONT RECEIVE THE NEXT PART OF THE PUZZLE IN A FEW YEARS TIME.
There is something inherant in us that repeats this cycle, and we are wise to watch our spirit, our words and our hearts. At the same time - what do you do? Is not the church in disobedience every time it gets locked into a moment in time, like the transfiguration 'let us build a temple to mark this wonderful moment for all ages to come' NO says Jesus - Dont do that! one must presume to have done so would have been detrimental.
What do you do, when a generation says , 'what god is giving you cannot be right - because He did it this way with us - He has revealed himself and cannot do it any other way'. Or when a generation has spent itself trying to deliver nobley what God gave them 30 years ago and are too burned to push again.
Someone once said to me, Our fight is NOT against flesh and - but against principalities and powers etc etc. But on many occassion it is indeed flesh and that embodies principalities and powers of fear of man, of pride, of reputation, or personal safety and stability over faith and forerunning. What does one do when the church is a heierachy, when the church has priests and laity and other ungodly things in place, when submission is indeed slavery.
Im painting a dark picture perhaps - but im sure it looks pretty dark to the Father too. Sin is sin. We do not come against sin with more sin, but love and passivity is not the flipside of this, Godly authority is.
I tell you, so much of what i see under the surface of congregations and stream is Empire and Sin by another name.
Withcraft in its simplest definition is where I as a person, seek to shape you future for my gain. I see many church leaders shaping others to prop up what 'they' are in, to bring others futures in line with their own.
Sin is Sin - we should look to Jesus for just how outspoken in righteousness we can and should be about it.
If we can work with the church as is, if it is able to hear, if it is able to process, if it is able to move on with the pillar of fire and uproot its tents, then there is much to work with.
If not, another group will form on the margins. We need to pray to God for the former, if this does not occur, we need to pray for mercy from God that the latter deals with sin and pride and the desire to establish something as 'separate from - unique - better than' and thus fall to pride b4 the sun sets.
Speak the truth in Love - but speak the truth. We are in danger of loving people to otherwise.
12:24 pm
Sarah said "This is an honest and sincere question in my walk with the Lord. I always want to process the good, the bad and the ugly without entering into the wrong spirit. I don't want to be a dialoguer of solely of "what's wrong with this or that", but how do we talk about things, how do we address issues, so that we can move forward as the Body of Christ?"
Oh, how I hear you there. In part, you're talking about balance, which is something that I'm very keen on. And I do hear your heart on the matter.
And I share your angst; How do I confront the issues that need confronting, bringing a proper balance of grace and pressure to bear without bringing conflict and combat? In my zeal how do I keep my spirit in the right attitude?
I think part of the answer is that there has to be some level of relationship with the folks involved in the equation. The youth pastor of our fellowship and I had such an encounter with each other. We had been discussing some "emergent" stuff. We both stated things that had each of us looking at the other and going "Huh?" In other situations, it could had led to conflict. But, because of the relationship we have, the level of experience that we both had been through together, we didn't collide. We both paused and said "Ok, it's clear that we had a miss on this. What needs to be clarified?" Turns out that we were on the same page, we just needed to define our terminology.
Later on he commented to me
"It's good to learn to agree on the necessary things and to learn to 'agree to disagree' without sacrificing relationship."
9:00 pm
Thanks, Gaz. You really articulated that well, and it helped sort some things out in my mind. And helped me to see the historical patterns and what to watch out for. And thanks, Michael. Your thoughts about the importance of relationship were really insightful. If we can't get that part right, then we're missing the whole boat! I really love the dynamic aspect of learning through dialogue. I find it much more effective than the static lecture-style of traditional teaching and education. Again, thanks for schooling me. Keep it up, guys!
5:40 am
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