Dont Start With Church
Its well worth having a title that draws the eye in dont you think.
Good stuff from Diane in Uk / Michael in Cali. and Casey in Seattle.
"if you want to see kingdom established - dont start with the church"
I heard this recently, and in the context it was absolutely correct in my view. You could see that as we were beginnign to think through what it means to see Gods kingdom come on earth - in and through all things - that we were unable to do it when our paradigm was from the church of 'somewhere else' looking outwards.
I think thats the discipleship test to some degree also - our mental locatedness of being 'in' church or 'as' church will come up with quite differing result.
Im telling you folks - im totally screwed now my brain has downloaded this heaven stuff...... im feeling pretty unhinged in what a friend calls 'A Glorious Meltdown'.
Ok - im going to pick you up - right now - im going to transport you to the city of Prague in Czech Republic. Has an incredible reformer heritage which ended in blood - like many good stories. There are 1% Christians there, of which 1/4 % are evangelical types - the catholics arent much better and the rest state they are atheist.
You and your partner - or best friend are now immediately there for 5 years. What you gonna do?
Find a Church???? or Establish Kingdom as the Church where the Kingdom is absent?
If the latter....what you gonna do, whats your process? How is it likely to unfold?
Personally - theres this great Greek restraunt in a side street - foods really cheap - the under manager is Alexandra - its only been open a week and you can still smell wet paint. You can tell he is under pressure and is pulling out the stops - he called us in off the street with the offer of 'first beer is free' - done deal. He has blessed us materially and in his manner - God blesses those who bless us, I ask if we can pray for him personally and for his business to prosper. Some religious catholic background seems to lead him towards stumbling 'he doesnt know THEEE prayer' - i encourage him that he has to do nothing - just recieve at this stage - yet he throws his hands outwards and says loudly ' Jesus bless me and this business'
I go home tomorrow. But in our game - you are there for 5 years........ i hope you like greek food for some time to come, not too long though, your not looking to stay there - your lookign to see something begin with legs that can walk - not a crutch on you - could be eating home grown czech in a few weeks. Its possible you will make friends with Alexandra - find less busy times where you can drink together and become friends - your are coming to his world - you are 'coming to eat at his house today', the kingdom of God is 'come amongst him and his own'.
Thennnnnnnnnnnn you get to worry about the commission part two - youve gone - and in your going youve engaged - youve made wilful and intentional connections because this is the rest of your life. And i dont care if your 'a ministry gift to the saints to see them do this stuff' there is no 'others do it instead of you and you live out the commission vicariously' in Jesus. But i suspect some have made it so.
So - your helping them through to faith - your baptising from life to death - your instructing in not just the words but the ways of jesus - they are following him towards the lost...................and in following He Is Making Them...whatever they need to be but the bottom line is going to involve fishing for people.
So i guess this is discipleship in some respects. What do you think? Do you need to be uprooted to a strange place to gain perspective - to RE Allign yourself? Can you do it where you are..... cause im getting a real headache here trying to reform my life practices - my rythmns - my diary - even what me and my wife focus towards.
For 10 years ive been trying to fill my diary with Kingdom stuff - but to be honest - theres a fair bit of 'church' stuff in there.
So.... Heres the punchline..... "do i begin to re align my thinking towards making new disciples - or continue to focus mostly on the recovery of those who have been 'in' for a great many years.
I dont think there is such a thing as a discipleship course to be fair - and i run a few. Im sure theres space for deliberate pushes - but a disciple it maketh not - we can smack butts and say 'there you go' now your a disciple. I havent seen a single one reproduce in all these years, not just my stuff either, as i look at what others are providing to 'make disciples' also.
Heck - i could be saying to you MOP UP all those whove been church for years and still not been discipled. Im not - im telling you personally to re produce.
Part of our 'pshyche' has led us to have friends in such a way that we are a hub - and our capacity for new people is quickly gone. Some have this 'friends with everyone for life' thing which needs adjusting too. Many believers are saturated and full with people - could even begin to reach someone new as they are now obligated. Im sure we are borderline 'sinning' in how Christ came to us - and we joined a new family - so christ has found it hard to come into our bilogical one - but we talk about those 'unreached' family members where new meet more regularly with our new one - that just seem a little out of whack? I wonder if this isnt an 'empire issue' tangled into the mix? Empire and Church as separate from life, would lead us to save people away from their contexts to this spirit filled one, So...... does Christ really come to eat with us - and our family - or is he a sharp shooter who picks us off in the street?
If i am to follow some of this stuff through - some of my now friends are going to have to see less of me - some of our 'real community' sacred cows are going to have to die. As long as we see this emerging church journey in centristic ways - our capacity soon shrinks - we now have an ideal to achieve and fragile relationships to maintain - and traditionally - thats as far as this thing gets.
If we are making disciples - we are about the same business - are we likely to cleave to one another less? - im sure this must change our thinking an practices here in some way - - - do you think?
posted by al bino at 9:17 am
10 Comments:
Divine discontentment, Divine desperation. Being thankful for that which has been given, but oh so desperate for more.
Knock, knock Neo; Take the red pill and wake up.
What does the above have to do with this thread? Dunno', just something that's been stewing lately. But I think that it's part of what's being talked about here, and elsewhere. The discontentment is fairly easy to understand; but where is this desperation coming from? Does it have to do with the times that we are in? I think it may be. I find a resonance with what Chris says about chucking it all. Sell all one has, chuck the job, the house the car . . . everything. Get a bunch of brothers and sisters in the Lord and just go . . . go missional.
Become the new Franciscans, the new Benedictines, the new Aidans and just go. It has been said that the first 2/3rd's of God's name is "GO".
There's a song by Switchfoot that has been really resonating deep in me. It's called:
"I dare you to move".
I want to step out, I want to move but I confess I feel like Indiana Jones in the last movie where he has to take that step, that leap of faith. Lord, I can't see anything there! There's nothing to step out on, just what looks like a big drop-off!
Then a voice says
"Let go."
I could ramble on, but I think you get my drift.
4:37 pm
Hello Lovely Peeps
Thanks for comments and dialogue - always valued.
Still very much in the middle of 'the lost coming bakc into view'. I have to be honest - while ive not fully repositioned myself to that end - its certainly coloured my worldview somewhat. Im really seeign that what we have called discipling and making disciples...if its occurred at all, it seems so focused on getting the ALREADY saints 'well'.
see blog
4:59 pm
Gaz said . . .
it seems so focused on getting the ALREADY saints 'well'.
But isn't that part of it? The discipling, the mentoring? I mean, yah, wouldn't it be great that once someone became a follower ("saved")that they were just instantly fixed, well and whole? But that's not the way it works. Sanctification is a process. It doesn't happen overnight. But at this point we get off track with this thread . . . but then maybe not. Maybe that's what part of the discipling thing is; giving them the tools and demonstrating how to use them in pursuit of getting well.
But saying "Hey, i'm not totally well either. i'm on the path, just like you are. But here is where i've walked . . . come look and see, then take and follow.
7:05 pm
Ho, ho. Hey hey, follow this link to an article on Spiritual Formation, which the author links to discipling. Hhhmmmm.
Maybe just a wee-bit closer to that elusive bull's eye we've been trying to nail?
7:41 pm
ooooppppps, guess it would help to paste the link in!
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/010/9.42.html
7:43 pm
hello - back to sheperds first comment about isnt that what were doing with folks (hello SM) in the sense of helping people who have met christ keep comign through.
Yes - i would say that this is our intention. What we lack is life setting discipleship. Jesus didnt have a place called church and a time to be there, his resources wer enot centralised and his context - whilst formal/ informal and on the road(along the way) they were never separate from here and now and daily life settings. Church was witht he people in what they were in in the day to day. YWAM have only recently come to terms with the fact that they have tremendous pastoral fall out after 'away from normal life setting dts' people go 'back'.
Because our leaders are often not in our own life and work setting, we dont have s to walk with.
Ive been chatting with guys here, in fact one is coming over this mornign to chew it some more....If you ask the question.....(as someone asked me) Who are you following right now gaz - who you see Christ revealing himself through in life settings!!
My reply.... NO ONE....in fact, some folks my be following me in a ;gaz has ideas about being different' context. But there arent peopel to follow who are In and Through all things as disciples, who are discipling others. If someone comes 'through' to faith, even if the meet jesus context was with someone at work.... the chances of that person then not casting them towards centralised 'proffessionals and programmes' to do the job is highly unlikely.
So, i just dont generally see a Jesus - and he was the after all. Now he hadnt had to do a 9 to 5 for quite some time, but he wasnt taking people out of that to find themselves.
So.... we need to help people through to faith, we need to disciple them intentionally, but how we do this will dictate their capability of actually living as a disciple. It needs a Jesus disciple to disciple....i dont know many, im not sure if im one yet. But its not a process of needing to see jesus more clearly, or maturity, but paradigm and locatedness that needs to transition through for me right now.
YARRR
8:57 am
I like that quote "It needs a Jesus disciple to disciple." I think part of the problem is that a subtle humanism has long since crept into the church getting us to focus on (and look to) man to disciple us. It's wonderful when you have people that inspire your faith and whose faith you wish to imitate. However, I believe there can be extended seasons when no such person is around. Ultimately, Jesus IS enough. If I am being discipled by Christ, then I will disciple others to be discipled by Him as well (rather than pointing disciples to look to man - humanism). It's interesting some of the comments that the apostle Paul made in this regard. He basically said, "Look, folks. No one taught me this (the gospel) - it was a revelation from Christ himself to me. I didn't learn it from the other apostles, I got it from Christ. And you can tell by the fruit that I'm baring that I do the works of an apostle." Pretty straight forward, and I'm sure he would be thrown out of most churches if he said that today to them! But, that's just because of the leftover residue of the shepharding movement and the perversion of the concept of "accountability" and "covering" and all that other garbage. The bottom line question is: is Jesus enough or not? (Don't get me wrong, I'm all for relational discipling, and the body helping each other grow - but we can't rely on man. Jesus is building His church, not us. Besides, what happens if I get thrown in prison and don't have access to a pastor or "accountability group"? How's my relationship with God going to survive that? (Okay, now I'm being a bit feciscious)... is that spelled right?
9:20 pm
i dont know how to spell facsicious either, and im about to be so i should learn it. Well, if your in prison, we have that wonderful arm of the priesthood in to the palces of the world called a chaplain.
not to dishonour anyone i work with as they are positively wonderful, but im putting a 40 day prayer diary for my town out across the churches. This time the whole 'point' is to highlight Life and Work settings - honouring the vast majorities ministry contexts with a few representative naems of folks.
SO i put this guy in at a mental hospital, a largely unknown member of staff, and this church leader says - "you need to put that hospitals chaplain in too - otherwise your being '''exclusive''. No - actually, im undoing the centred churches exclusivity of a great many years.
Yeah - so youll be fine in prison - the church has that covered - by a recognised covered sent one.
Oh - can i add 'sent one' to the fire please......... what the heck does that mean? im sure it doesnt exist in the church language for any whollistic reasons. Come back Y'all
7:06 am
Well, I will echo my question from the next thread "Church on the way or Church in the way?"; and here it is:
"Is it possible to be mentor and evangelist all at the same time?"
Or maybe I should have put it evangelize/mentor. But it gets back to the point that no one person can do it all. Which is why we need the "body" of Christ. The whole hand/foot/eye thing.
I mean, look at it from a vocational viewpoint. I know computer stuff real well, let's say an 8 out of 10 on the scale. Automechanics? Sheesh, maybe a 2 out of 10. Which means beyoind changing the oil or replacing a lamp, I gotta take it to a car mechanic. And I think everyone here knows that as it is in the natural, so it is in the Kingdom.
No one can do it all. And I think Jesus did that on purpose given our tendency to try to be the "Uber-Saint". And yah, Apostle PAul got a lot of direct download from God, but he also was tutored by some of the saints as well.
And Paul didn't travel alone either. We see him pouring into several others.
My whole rabbit-trail here? I can understand the frustration with the corporate (gosh I wish there was a better word than "corporate")church and/or the "centralized" church, but I don't think I'm ready to flush the whole thing. Doe's there need to be improvemnet? Yep you betch'ya. Does there need to be a continual transformation/reformation? Yep again?
But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don't think it's a good idea to try to deconstruct things because of errors made in the past. I mean, look at what flak the prophetic has taken in the last 10 to 15 years. You got whole groups out there gunnin' for it because of mistakes that have been made. Does that mean we flush the whole thing? I don't think so. Neither do we need to flush any other part just because errors happened.
(Pulling heavily the caboose to get it back on track [heh, heh])So too we still need discipling/mentoring being done by folks in the body. Does it need to transform/reform/grow? Oh yeah, big time yes. But we can build on what's been done in the past. Use those foundations that we know are good and true. Where the foundation wasn't good due to errors/abuse . . . then yeah, it's gotta go. But I need to be careful, lest while sledging away at the bad part i accidently take out a chunk of a good section.
Oh Lord, guide my hands (and heart, mind & spirit too)
8:32 pm
That's a good point, Gaz. There are lots of prison chaplains in the western world. But I guess I was thinking along the lines of being thrown in prison for being a Christian, in a nation like China or the Middle East or something. I think a great picture of non-centralized church is the Chinese underground church. They are organic because they have to be! :)And they are turning their nation upside down with the simplicity of the gospel and without all the structures/infrastructures and resources that the western church has (but somehow, our nations aren't being revolutionized yet...)
11:22 pm
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